Seriously now for a second. On the whole, religion has done far more crappy things than it has done good. Overzealous conviction of anything is bad. Remember to respect your fellow humans!
Yes Jacob, I do. There’s no denying that religion means a lot to many people, and that it does them good on a personal level. For some, religion brings with it a set of sound – often humanistic – values that let them understand other people. Historically however, it has been the cause of division of humans (usually along with an unhealthily large dose of patriotism): the crusades, the holocaust and the war on ‘terror’ are all events that have religious division as a common component. This division has done more harm than the small deeds have done good. At the end of the day, all that matters is the compassion we should be feeling towards our fellow humans, animals and nature.
In the case of the Crusades, religion was just an excuse to go plundering for wealth. I haven’t studied the Hitler in detail yet, so I don’t know exactly why he persecuted the Jews to the extent that he did. Certainly, man has done countless horrible things in the name of religion, but [Christianity specifically] doesn’t instruct people to do them (Islam does, AFAIK). I understand that’s not quite your point, but Christianity is necessary to society. Without it, there are no moral absolutes. No one would have any reason to do anything good, because (and you probably disagree with me here) man is inherently evil.
One more thing- how can you say “small deeds”? As a single example, George Müller personally cared for ten thousand orphans in his life because of his faith.
BTW, did you see my article at YSAB (which I regret not editing and rewriting)?
You have an interesting position. No, Islam doesn’t say that man should do evil things any more than Christianity does – it’s all in the interpretation, which extremists like to take to the, well, extreme. But I’m more interested in why you say man is inherently evil? Your argument seems odd to me from a number of points. I suspect that you define ‘good’ and ‘evil’ by what’s said by god/written in the bible, and that book is vague enough to open for too many interpretations (not to mention that it is, to me, outdated to carry any real relevance for todays society). Instead, I’ll give an example. I would’ve liked it if you provided your thought on the situation – it would enable me to understand your point better. Sweden, where I live, is one of the most secularized countries in the world. To simplify it, church is very much phased out and the majority of the population consider itself non-religious. If what you say is true, our country should’ve succumbed to do indescribable things a long time ago. Yet, that doesn’t happen. Instead, we’ve become the country where equal rights between sexes, “races” and social classes are of utmost priority. We’re one of the leaders in the world when it comes to responsible globalization (financially and ecologically). We’re the country who accepts and helps the greatest amount of immigrants per capita in the world. It seems as though man doesn’t need moral absolutes. I believe that man creates his own moral standards. These can be very high – and, as far as I’ve seen – most often are. What is your take on this example?
Sorry I’m late. Concerning your comment about the Bible, I’ll have to flat-out disagree with you. It’s the most relevant, clear, and useful book ever. As a side note, did you know that no one has ever been able to counter a piece of historical data from it? Anyway, yes, I do believe in man’s inherent evility. Concerning your country, I actually had a better point in mind yesterday, but have forgotten now. The truth is, I don’t exactly know how to explain that. I can, however, point to the Renaissance as a period in which people thought that man’s ability to reason would lead him to enlightenment, but that didn’t turn out so well.
I really don’t see how anyone could think that man is inherently good. If he is, then what makes him commit evil? Is he born with an infant understanding of good and bad, and comes, by his own volition, to embrace one or the other as he grows? Every cause requires an effect.
I’m really sorry that I can’t take this discussion any further, as I haven’t studied much in the way of any apologetics. Nevertheless, it has been interesting. Oh, and my entire response has left out the far greater reason for Christianity. Namely, that God exists, and we should love Him as He says. I have a feeling you won’t have much sympathy for that belief, though. ;]
Discussion
Do you honestly believe that? Have you not considered the countless way that Christians have helped those in need over the centuries?
Nice photo, though.
Yes Jacob, I do. There’s no denying that religion means a lot to many people, and that it does them good on a personal level. For some, religion brings with it a set of sound – often humanistic – values that let them understand other people. Historically however, it has been the cause of division of humans (usually along with an unhealthily large dose of patriotism): the crusades, the holocaust and the war on ‘terror’ are all events that have religious division as a common component. This division has done more harm than the small deeds have done good. At the end of the day, all that matters is the compassion we should be feeling towards our fellow humans, animals and nature.
In the case of the Crusades, religion was just an excuse to go plundering for wealth. I haven’t studied the Hitler in detail yet, so I don’t know exactly why he persecuted the Jews to the extent that he did. Certainly, man has done countless horrible things in the name of religion, but [Christianity specifically] doesn’t instruct people to do them (Islam does, AFAIK). I understand that’s not quite your point, but Christianity is necessary to society. Without it, there are no moral absolutes. No one would have any reason to do anything good, because (and you probably disagree with me here) man is inherently evil.
One more thing- how can you say “small deeds”? As a single example, George Müller personally cared for ten thousand orphans in his life because of his faith.
BTW, did you see my article at YSAB (which I regret not editing and rewriting)?
You have an interesting position. No, Islam doesn’t say that man should do evil things any more than Christianity does – it’s all in the interpretation, which extremists like to take to the, well, extreme. But I’m more interested in why you say man is inherently evil? Your argument seems odd to me from a number of points. I suspect that you define ‘good’ and ‘evil’ by what’s said by god/written in the bible, and that book is vague enough to open for too many interpretations (not to mention that it is, to me, outdated to carry any real relevance for todays society). Instead, I’ll give an example. I would’ve liked it if you provided your thought on the situation – it would enable me to understand your point better. Sweden, where I live, is one of the most secularized countries in the world. To simplify it, church is very much phased out and the majority of the population consider itself non-religious. If what you say is true, our country should’ve succumbed to do indescribable things a long time ago. Yet, that doesn’t happen. Instead, we’ve become the country where equal rights between sexes, “races” and social classes are of utmost priority. We’re one of the leaders in the world when it comes to responsible globalization (financially and ecologically). We’re the country who accepts and helps the greatest amount of immigrants per capita in the world. It seems as though man doesn’t need moral absolutes. I believe that man creates his own moral standards. These can be very high – and, as far as I’ve seen – most often are. What is your take on this example?
Sorry I’m late. Concerning your comment about the Bible, I’ll have to flat-out disagree with you. It’s the most relevant, clear, and useful book ever. As a side note, did you know that no one has ever been able to counter a piece of historical data from it? Anyway, yes, I do believe in man’s inherent evility. Concerning your country, I actually had a better point in mind yesterday, but have forgotten now. The truth is, I don’t exactly know how to explain that. I can, however, point to the Renaissance as a period in which people thought that man’s ability to reason would lead him to enlightenment, but that didn’t turn out so well.
I really don’t see how anyone could think that man is inherently good. If he is, then what makes him commit evil? Is he born with an infant understanding of good and bad, and comes, by his own volition, to embrace one or the other as he grows? Every cause requires an effect.
I’m really sorry that I can’t take this discussion any further, as I haven’t studied much in the way of any apologetics. Nevertheless, it has been interesting. Oh, and my entire response has left out the far greater reason for Christianity. Namely, that God exists, and we should love Him as He says. I have a feeling you won’t have much sympathy for that belief, though. ;]
Thanks for your time.